Jump to content

Talk:Zodiac Killer

Page contents not supported in other languages.
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Former good articleZodiac Killer was one of the Social sciences and society good articles, but it has been removed from the list. There are suggestions below for improving the article to meet the good article criteria. Once these issues have been addressed, the article can be renominated. Editors may also seek a reassessment of the decision if they believe there was a mistake.
Article milestones
DateProcessResult
November 16, 2007Good article nomineeListed
October 5, 2013Good article reassessmentDelisted
On this day...Facts from this article were featured on Wikipedia's Main Page in the "On this day..." column on December 20, 2013, December 20, 2018, and December 20, 2021.
Current status: Delisted good article

Semi-protected edit request on 23 October 2024

[edit]

Under "Suspected Victims" section, "Robert Domingos and Linda Edwards", change "Edwards told her friend Shirley that they were going threre." to "Edwards told her friend Shirley that they were going there." 2601:644:9201:8AF0:702F:BC0F:F385:E1D3 (talk) 16:28, 23 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

 Done Typo fixed. Thebiguglyalien (talk) 16:35, 23 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

The text here "They were linked by the fact that they were dumped in ravines and killed in conjunction with astrological events, such as the winter solstice, equinox, and Friday the 13th.[124]" Implies that Friday the 13th is an astrological event which it is not. I'd recommend either removing Friday the 13th or put that in a different sentence — Preceding unsigned comment added by 172.59.33.96 (talk) 18:20, 25 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Short citations

[edit]

The short citations should probably use a template like {{sfn}} or {{harvnb}}. Also, the Nuys in "Kelleher, Nuys 2002" should be Van Nuys. I'm sure there's a way to automate adding the "Van," but I'm not clever enough to figure that one out. Snowman304|talk 00:41, 28 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Separate pages

[edit]

The article is nearly 200k with 266 footnotes. It's a bit of a slog. It sure seems like it would make sense to break it out into separate pages.Trumpetrep (talk) 04:49, 8 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I was building up the article until I would separate the suspects section into its own page a la Jack the Ripper suspects. I think the article would be fine in scope from that point on. You can create Zodiac Killer suspects (that's a redirect) if you want right now, I'm busy with other pages. Atubofsilverware (talk) 22:03, 9 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
And then I'll quickly write a summarized version of the suspects page on this page. Atubofsilverware (talk) 22:06, 9 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Actually, I'll hold off those pages for now. I made the Zodiac Killer suspects page and I'm transferring refs and photos right now. Atubofsilverware (talk) 22:17, 9 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Great. That seems like the right move. It does seem like a few suspects should not be listed in an encyclopedic article, especially given that most of the citations rely on what is essentially fan fiction. For example, if John A. Cameron's allegation is met with "universally disdain", why are we including it on Wikipedia?Trumpetrep (talk) 02:24, 10 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Agree great move.... much easier to navigate and manage this article now. Moxy🍁 02:31, 10 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I agree with you on those two suspects. "Highly-criticized suspects" was a temporary categorizing by me, they were already on the article prior to my work. I've removed them. Atubofsilverware (talk) 02:40, 10 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
It seems like a 3rd page about the Zodiac letters that also presents the ciphers in their entirety would be warranted. The dizzying amount of communication and the fact that people are still trying to solve the ciphers today strikes me as notable enough for an article.
It would also ease the pressure on this article, which is still far too bloated. I've incorporated the Works Cited books into the reflist as single, named citations. There are still a great deal of bizarre reference names and citations. Will plod on. Trumpetrep (talk) 04:52, 10 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I support an astrological murders page, but a letters page strikes me as overkill. We're at 9000 words now, which is not wild by any means. Atubofsilverware (talk) 10:54, 10 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

A good example of this article's shortcomings with the Zodiac letters is the Avery Halloween Card section I just edited. The paragraph introduces it as a "card", but refers to it the rest of the way as a "letter". I edited them all to agree. I'm not sure this is correct, though (was there a letter inside the card?), and that's the problem that I see. The Zodiac letters are so frequent, complicated, and integral to the case that it seems like the material should be presented with more clarity.

I realized that the other issue was that the Zodiac letters were separated from each other by the "Suspected Victims" section. It makes little sense to separate them on either side of such an expansive section in an expansive article. It seems best to keep confirmed Zodiac victims and letters together.Trumpetrep (talk) 19:33, 10 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

The separation was not my doing, I'm fine with moving that section up.
As for your other concerns, I agree that the correspondence needs work. I was working on it before you started helping. But I don't see why more clear writing on the Zodiac's correspondence needs a separate article. Atubofsilverware (talk) 23:09, 10 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Or another way to phrase it: I think ~8800 words is appropriate for "arguably the most famous unsolved murder case in American history". Atubofsilverware (talk) 23:12, 10 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

The word/byte count is not so much of an issue as utility. Is the entry doing what it is supposed to for Wikipedia? For instance, JFK's assassination is such a sprawling topic that there are articles for his autopsy, Oswald, the Warren Commission, Clay Shaw, etc. The 11/9/69 Zodiac letter is 7 pages, yet it occupied the same amount of space as Sandy Betts did in the article.

Sandy's kooky claims could absolutely be worth including in Wikipedia, but isn't a verified Zodiac letter with a bomb diagram more important? The article seems to be trying to do too many things at once in its current form. That is why it seems worth a bit of restructuring. Thanks for the additional pages you've created! Trumpetrep (talk) 01:51, 11 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Alright, I'm convinced. What are your ultimate plans for the page though? Is that the final major change you think should be made? Atubofsilverware (talk) 15:18, 11 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I'm most focused on making sure credible sources are cited in an efficient way and that the language makes sense. I want to make sure that assessment's concerns are addressed. The biggest issue remaining seems to be classifying the material. The way you merged the confirmed attacks and letters is a good example of how things should look.Trumpetrep (talk) 18:16, 11 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Astrological Murders

[edit]

Someone did an extreme amount of research to list these victims and find citations. However, the only reason this victim list was in the article is because of a "tentative connection" seen by police at the time between them and the Zodiac murders. The only cited source for that is Graysmith's book. Given the tenuous connection, and the bulk of the article, it seemed best to remove the list of victims. I'm including it here in case someone wants to restore it. There is already so much information in this article that it doesn't seem wise to weigh it down with extensive detail about murders that aren't definitively committed by the Zodiac. It certainly seems that there is enough material here for a separate article:

* Elaine Louise Davis, 17, who disappeared on December 1, 1969, from her home in Walnut Creek, California. On December 19, the body of a young woman – eventually identified as Davis after an exhumation in 2000 – was discovered floating off Light House Point near Santa Cruz.[1][2]

  • Leona LaRell Roberts, 16, whose nude body was found ten days before the winter solstice on the beach at Bolinas Lagoon in Marin County, on December 28, 1969. She had been kidnapped from her boyfriend's home on December 10. Her death was treated as a homicide, although the official cause was listed as "exposure" by the medical examiner.[3][4]
  • Cosette Ann Ellison, 15, whose nude body was found in a ravine seventeen days before the vernal equinox. The cause of her death was undetermined. She had been abducted on March 3, 1970, from her residence in Moraga, California, as she got off the school bus at 3:20 p.m.[5]
  • Patricia Ann King, 20, who was found strangled and discarded in a rural gully at Diablo Valley College. She was nude from the waist down but had not been raped.[6]
  • Judith Ann Hakari, 23, who was last seen leaving work at Sutter Medical Center in Sacramento at 11:30 p.m. on March 7, 1970,[7] thirteen days before the equinox. She was discovered, nude and bludgeoned, in an overgrown ravine off Ponderosa Way, near Weimar on April 26.[8]
  • Marie Antoinette Anstey, 23, who was kidnapped in Vallejo after being stunned by a blow to the head, and then drowned. Her body was recovered in rural Lake County on March 21, and an autopsy revealed traces of mescaline in her bloodstream.[9]
  • Eva Lucienne Blau, 17, who was found clubbed to death and dumped in a roadside gully near Santa Rosa during the equinox on March 20, 1970. The medical examiner discovered drugs in her circulatory system. She was last seen on March 12, leaving Jack London Hall after telling friends that she was heading home.[10]
  • Carol Beth Hilburn, 22, who was found beaten to death in a ravine on November 13, 1970. She was last seen at Lloyd Hickey’s Forty Grand Club in Sacramento on November 14 at approximately 5:00 a.m.[11] Hilburn had been stripped of her clothing except for her underwear, which was found around her knees. She had been beaten about the face, and had a deep cut to her throat.
  • Denise Kathleen Anderson, 22, who disappeared on April 13, 1971, having been last seen by one of her roommates at 5:30 a.m. at their residence in Sacramento. She has not been seen since.[12][13]
  • Susan Marie Lynch, 22, who was discovered murdered on July 31, 1971, having been buried alive near East Levee Road in Sacramento, one-half mile north of Del Paso Road and 0.6 miles southwest of the Hilburn dump site.[14]
  • Linda Diane Uhlig, 19, who was found in a ditch alongside a rural road beaten to death at Half Moon Bay on March 28, 1972, six days after the vernal equinox. Her skull had been smashed and it appeared that her attacker had tried to decapitate her.[15]
  • Lynn Derrick, 24, who was discovered in Noe Valley, San Francisco, on July 26, 1972, at 4:15 a.m. She had been strangled and a sock had been forced into her mouth, but no sexual molestation had taken place. Derrick had been abducted from her home approximately two hours earlier, at around 2:00 a.m., when a female neighbour reported hearing a disturbance, a dragging sound, and a car speeding away.[16]
  1. ^ "Elaine Davis, Kidnapping and Homicide (1969)". Walnut Creek Police Department. Archived from the original on February 25, 2024. Retrieved September 14, 2023.
  2. ^ Goodyear, Charlie (May 16, 2001). "Body of girl missing since '69 identified". SFGate. Archived from the original on September 7, 2023. Retrieved September 7, 2023.
  3. ^ Contra Costa Times (newspaper), December 30, 1969, page 1.
  4. ^ Concord Transcript (newspaper), January 15, 1970, page 2.
  5. ^ "THE MURDER OF LEONA LARELL ROBERTS". Zodiac Ciphers. Archived from the original on September 28, 2023. Retrieved September 14, 2023.
  6. ^ "THE MURDER OF PATRICIA KING". Zodiac Ciphers. Archived from the original on September 22, 2023. Retrieved September 14, 2023.
  7. ^ "After 46 Years, Bride-to-Be Murders Remain Unsolved". FOX40. October 6, 2016. Archived from the original on September 21, 2023. Retrieved September 14, 2023.
  8. ^ "THE MURDER OF JUDITH HAKARI". Zodiac Ciphers. Archived from the original on September 23, 2023. Retrieved September 14, 2023.
  9. ^ Napa Valley Register (newspaper), March 25, 1970, page 2.
  10. ^ Napa Valley Register (newspaper), April 15, 1970, page 15
  11. ^ "THE MURDER OF CAROL BETH HILBURN". Zodiac Ciphers. Archived from the original on September 25, 2023. Retrieved September 14, 2023.
  12. ^ "THE DISAPPEARANCE OF DENISE ANDERSON". Zodiac Ciphers. Archived from the original on September 23, 2023. Retrieved September 14, 2023.
  13. ^ "Denise Kathleen Anderson". The Charley Project. Archived from the original on October 2, 2023. Retrieved September 14, 2023.
  14. ^ "THE MURDER OF SUSAN MARIE LYNCH". Zodiac Ciphers. Archived from the original on December 4, 2023. Retrieved September 14, 2023.
  15. ^ "Authorities take new look at 50-year-old Coastside killing that still shocks conscience". Half Moon Bay Review. March 29, 2022. Archived from the original on January 21, 2024. Retrieved September 14, 2023.
  16. ^ "THE FINAL DAY". Zodiac Ciphers. Archived from the original on December 7, 2023. Retrieved September 14, 2023.
Retrieved from "https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Talk:Zodiac_Killer&oldid=1256812878"